Off Topic USA 2012 Elections Thread

[Andersonortho]

Coach Goofy... Feel judged? So do I.

Some statements on this thread that the "rich" are not paying their fair share has "judged" me. Go ahead... judge me b/c I make a good living. I admit that I am in the 35% tax bracket. But I scraped and struggled and pinched pennies (still do) and studied and sacrificed and went without (still do) AND made the most of every opportunity I was offered. I am grateful for my blessings and try to be generous in return. I volunteer and give more than my 10% to charity... AND pay my gym tuition on time AND do not bother the coaches with questions about my kids' skill progression (LOL).... but that isn't enough for some?

I take pride in providing an excellent service and treating all patients with respect and kindness as do many of my colleagues. Apparently people like how I "do business" which is why my business is growing. Should I be "punished" for being successful? Should I pay more because I know how to make good business decisions?

I am not trying to make generalizations. I am trying to expose the specific area of hidden abuse that do occur. The system needs to learn from these.

 

[SkiBumGymMom]

The truth hurts sometimes. The Medicaid system is a broken system and we all know that. It may be used responsibly in some great people but it IS abused in many cases.

Here are my REAL WORLD experiences from yesterday and today:
(1) A mother said she refuses to work because it's easier to just "draw a check" and "get it (my service) for free".
(2) A local (very successful) restaurant owner recently married a woman with 2 kids. She has guardianship of the kids and she does not work. They openly admit that the kids are covered by Medicaid b/c the guardian (mother) has a $0 income.
(3) A person called seeking my services yet they have "no showed"-(--meaning they did not show up for a previous appointment and did not call to cancel) their last 3 appointments. When he was told that we would not schedule due to their past broken appts the person cursed at my receptionist accusing us of descriminiating against Medicaid patients. Yet we are the only office in a 100 miles that accepts Medicaid!

Can you sense my frustration? This is reality.

Completely understood. I'm frustrated with public education in particular, because it's my reality. The thing with personal examples is each side will come up with a few to support their policy (I'm guilty of it as well, my own personal experience with being low income and dealing with health care affects my view on it)

The question is, what should we do to fix it? When I say expand it to cover more people, I don't mean to neglect any rules or regulation. Is there a way to do this while expanding it to cover the millions of very sick and un or underinsured Americans who are suffering right now (who are just as real as the examples you present, stories have been shared already in this thread from many posters)

If there's no answer or no realistic way to address the abuse (that inevitably occurs in any system, human nature IMO) Then that also leads to the philosophical question, is it better to cut something because a some people abuse it and leave people who need it without? Or better to have some abuse but know the people who need it are covered? Or is there a happy medium? Similar to the idea in the death penalty debate (not to bring that up or say that health care is like the death penalty, just trying to draw a parallel in logic), but is it better to enforce it and find out a few innocent people were executed by their government? Or is it better to know that a few heinous criminals have a 20 year expensive appeals process and/or spend life in jail to make sure that no innocent individuals are convicted?

(And thank you for providing health care, I don't want to villainize the providers at all, my nephew is doing an oncology fellowship right now after finishing his residency at a top teaching hospital, I know the hard work and expense that goes into becoming a practicing physician)

 

[Andersonortho]

I am not being disrespectful just frank.

Who are the very poor? The words are used so frequently... who are they? If Medicaid and CHIP-style programs are there to help those with the lowest income... who are the uninsured? The debate over pre-existing conditions aside (yes, I think there shoud be an option for coverage)... is it possible that some of the uninsured are "uninsured" because they choose to go without? Could they be choosing to purchase something other than health insurance with their money?

I am not suggesting to cut the Medicaid program. But expanding it has potential problems as well. The line has to be drawn somewhere between getting it for free (or a very, very low premium like CHIP) and paying for it. Can our society afford to continue to move that line every few years? What will eventually happen? Could there be more people utilizing the government program than people paying taxes for it?

 

[SkiBumGymMom]

I am not being disrespectful just frank.

Who are the very poor? The words are used so frequently... who are they? If Medicaid and CHIP-style programs are there to help those with the lowest income... who are the uninsured? The debate over pre-existing conditions aside (yes, I think there shoud be an option for coverage)... is it possible that some of the uninsured are "uninsured" because they choose to go without? Could they be choosing to purchase something other than health insurance with their money?

I am not suggesting to cut the Medicaid program. But expanding it has potential problems as well. The line has to be drawn somewhere between getting it for free (or a very, very low premium like CHIP) and paying for it. Can our society afford to continue to move that line every few years? What will eventually happen? Could there be more people utilizing the government program than people paying taxes for it?

For the sake of discussion I think we should look at what we mean by "very poor" "poor" "rich" etc. What I'm thinking of in the US, it's not just the very poor needing access (although the quality of what they do have access to should be improved, no one should have to wait 7 months for a wheelchair when they're paralyzed because of Medicaid... once again personal experience), it's the ever expanding lower middle-middle class that is having problems. Making slightly too much for Medicaid, for FAFSA student loans, for EBT/TANF, etc. but barely making ends meet.

I shared an article the other day that had stories of working people who make "too much" to qualify for aid but are completely uninsured and having medical problems. And even with families with insurance, who are paying premiums, don't have enough for said premiums, or have to actively make decisions like "should my son have surgery on his shattered his forearm or should we pay for the phone this month, should we get groceries or just take the chance that the cast will fix it leaving him with possible medical problems down the line" (my own personal experience and I've heard of so many more similar stories) I'm sure someone knows someone who knows a person who gets EBT and then spends money on drugs and nail salons, but there are very real stories of very real families that fall into the other category. The income disparity in the US is growing, it's the highest among all industrial nations and it's the "middle class" that's drowning.

 

[gymcoach26]

is it possible that some of the uninsured are "uninsured" because they choose to go without? Could they be choosing to purchase something other than health insurance with their money?

If you are suggesting that people who are uninsured actually could afford health insurance, but are choosing to unnecessarily spend money like they are wasting it, you are misguided. I am uninsured and yes, I do choose to purchase other things with my money.. it is called food and shelter. Priorities...

I love hearing from people who are in the 35% tax bracket making the 250K+ and they say they are going without or making sacrifices. It is kind of funny to me because if you are really going without, why is it hard for you to imagine what someone making 20K is going without? What exactly are you going without? Didn't get the Lexus, had to settle for a camry? At least you have transportation. Can't afford to buy the overly priced organic food? At least you aren't going hungry. Can't afford the private lesson for gym? At least you child is able to participate.

 

[bogwoppit]

When I say say "poor" I mean the lower working class (British term) The minimum wage earners, single parents families who work low paid jobs.

When I say rich I mean the above $250,000 a year income earners.

Both groups are at the extreme, compared to the income of "average" US families.

 

[Andersonortho]

If they make too much for Medicaid, they should qualify for the next step... CHIP. If they make too much for CHIP.. .then must purchase their own. Too expensive? AHHHH. There is the problem. What about more choices for purchasing insurance? Why give it to the government?

There will always be someone on the "edge" of qualifying for this or that. We all have to make decisions. I pay a lot for my insurance and still have to decide "should I pay the bill for my CT scan" or buy spend it on school clothes? Due to my extremely high decuctible ($10K), all of my medical expenses this year have been out-of-pocket, too. (my own personal experience) Sometimes there are difficult choices to make.

Income disparity increasing? Depends on whose article you're reading. Just because someone is gaining wealth does not mean someone else is losing it. Our economy does not exist in a vacuum.

 

[Andersonortho]

When I say say "poor" I mean the lower working class (British term) The minimum wage earners, single parents families who work low paid jobs.

When I say rich I mean the above $250,000 a year income earners.

Both groups are at the extreme, compared to the income of "average" US families.

Shouldn't a single parent working a low income job qualify for Medicaid or CHIP-style insurance and EBT? In my state a family of 2 can earn up to $45,390 and qualify for CHIP.

 

[Andersonortho]

If you are suggesting that people who are uninsured actually could afford health insurance, but are choosing to unnecessarily spend money like they are wasting it, you are misguided. I am uninsured and yes, I do choose to purchase other things with my money.. it is called food and shelter. Priorities...

I love hearing from people who are in the 35% tax bracket making the 250K+ and they say they are going without or making sacrifices. It is kind of funny to me because if you are really going without, why is it hard for you to imagine what someone making 20K is going without? What exactly are you going without? Didn't get the Lexus, had to settle for a camry? At least you have transportation. Can't afford to buy the overly priced organic food? At least you aren't going hungry. Can't afford the private lesson for gym? At least you child is able to participate.

Whoa! Are you angry at me because I am different? You don't know what I may have lived through to get where I am. I have dedicated my career to helping those in need. Tread carefully.

My comments have to do with affording health insurance. The system may need changes but at what income level do we draw the line for assistance? At 20K per year (with a dependent), a person should qualify for at least CHIP-style insurance.

Good questions? No Lexus just an old minivan. No organic foods... ever. No private lessons. Grateful for the opportunity for my kids... when I was a kid, my parents could not afford it for me.

 

[SkiBumGymMom]

Shouldn't a single parent working a low income job qualify for Medicaid or CHIP-style insurance and EBT? In my state a family of 2 can earn up to $45,390 and qualify for CHIP.

They should but don't always. I've shared my story throughout the thread and that's only one example.

 

[bogwoppit]

Shouldn't a single parent working a low income job qualify for Medicaid or CHIP-style insurance and EBT? In my state a family of 2 can earn up to $45,390 and qualify for CHIP.

You would think that was the case, but it isn't always.

Then there are the young people working low income jobs and living alone. They really struggle.

I am not blaming anyone but the system. We all earn what we earn. Compassion is cheap though.

 

[Andersonortho]

They should but don't always. I've shared my story throughout the thread and that's only one example.

Costs of living vary. What I am trying to understand is what is considered a low income? (Please don't shoot me for asking.) How can we spend billions on Medicaid and it not cover a family of 2 making $20K? When I was in grad school and my husband was teaching, he made $25K and we considered ourselves rich. I even had a baby while in grad school and sacrificed $400 per month on full time daycare. We had to make difficult choices, too. I think that is what helped me to be very careful with our money.

Ski... we may not agree on it all but I applaud your perseverence. People like you make a real difference. Kudos!

 

[Andersonortho]

Income Guidelines for Colorado Medicaid and CHP+ state that a family of 2 can earn up to $3153 per month (AFTER deduction for child care, insurance premiums, child support expenses) before tax deductions and still qualify.

IF that equates to $37, 836 (before taxes)... how can a person making $20K not get covered? What am
I missing?

 

[gymcoach26]

Whoa! Are you angry at me because I am different? You don't know what I may have lived through to get where I am. I have dedicated my career to helping those in need. Tread carefully.

Those were generalized statements and not directed at any one person, rather the group mentality. Sorry you took it personally. And you do not know what most of us on here have been through, so we can all tread carefully

 

[gymgal]

Side note, do you still work in public education? I'm very familiar with IEPs, I'm a district special education coordinator. Disadvantaged doesn't equate to special needs, wealthy school districts with special needs children receive the same federal funding.

No, but I do funnel my clients into the schools. I realize that disadvantaged does not mean special needs, though there is certainly a higher percentage of special needs in these low income areas.
If the states want their rights so badly, they should work to pick up that tab. (I don't think anyone would make the argument that special needs children don't deserve a quality public education with reasonable accessibility).

I also understand I live in the US and the constitution does grant states rights. There should be some states rights, but the question is where do we draw the line?

I admit I'm not am expert in our founding documents, but what I do know is that the constitution does not give the states *some* rights - it gives them ALL rights, with the exception of those listed specifically in the constitution to be in the realm of the the federal government. THIS is the crux of the constitutional argument about Obamacare and why is was able to be brought to the supreme court. It is not within the power of the fed gvt to mandate citizens have healthcare. This power belongs to the states.
The founders didn't do this lightly. There were many who wanted a more centralized government but in the end, they decided it was more beneficial for the states to have the most power because they knew what their people needed most. Over the past 2 centuries, state powers have slowly eroded away.

Do you think the states should be investing money in growing and future industries to provide jobs for their citizens? Or should it be a solely private enterprise? On the latter, as it's been discussed before in this thread, in today's world there is very little motivation for US companies to make US jobs, it's much cheaper and more profitable to outsource and consolidate. Should there be government intervention there at all?

No, I personally believe the states should not be intrrvening in business affairs. BUT I do support the states' right to do this if that's what its people want. While the woes of private enterprise may have been 'discussed', and most people participating on this thread believe there is little motivation, it doesn't make it true. The vast majority of businesses in this nation are small businesses, paying US taxes, hiring US citizens.

 

[CoachGoofy]

Coach Goofy... Feel judged? So do I.

Some statements on this thread that the "rich" are not paying their fair share has "judged" me. Go ahead... judge me b/c I make a good living. I admit that I am in the 35% tax bracket. But I scraped and struggled and pinched pennies (still do) and studied and sacrificed and went without (still do) AND made the most of every opportunity I was offered. I am grateful for my blessings and try to be generous in return. I volunteer and give more than my 10% to charity... AND pay my gym tuition on time AND do not bother the coaches with questions about my kids' skill progression (LOL).... but that isn't enough for some?

I take pride in providing an excellent service and treating all patients with respect and kindness as do many of my colleagues. Apparently people like how I "do business" which is why my business is growing. Should I be "punished" for being successful? Should I pay more because I know how to make good business decisions?

I am not trying to make generalizations. I am trying to expose the specific area of hidden abuse that do occur. The system needs to learn from these.

Now we need to talk about power.

You are rich. You have power. I am poor. I don't. I could complain about rich people all day long-which is not something I choose to waste my time doing, I have school and work-and no one who can do stuff would care.

Whereas, when rich people talk about poor people (and, btw, your child's coach is probably one of them-coaching is something you do for love, not money), decision makers listen. Then it goes from "there are a few people who abuse this system" to "all poor people are parasites".

Then people like me are treated like something you scraped off your shoe. This is exactly what you don't need when you're juggling all the things you need to survive. If you are poor (and many many people were born into poverty, many more are disabled-often with things they can't afford to get treated because medicaid restrictions are terrible, assuming you meet criteria and can prove it every 4 months), it's not exactly a land of opportunity.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

When you're in a position of power, you get judged.

This is as it should be.

When I coach, I am in a position of power over a group of kids, and I am getting judged every second of it. By the parents, by the other coaches, by those above me in the gym hierarchy, by everybody. And this is exactly as it should be -- if I cannot stand up to that judgement, if I am not judged worthy of holding that position of power, then I should no longer have that position. When you are in a position of power, you are morally obligated to earn it, and to continue earning it.

When I walk out the door of the gym, my position of power evaporates. I am a poor twenty-something-year-old doing whatever he can to keep his body and his car in adequate working order, to keep a roof over his head, and so on. Right now I'm renting a single room from the brother of the owner of the gym where I work, because I haven't yet found an apartment that will let me keep my dog without charging extortionate rent (Darwin, the dog, is currently living back in NC with my parents).

If you are rich, you do not face that problem. You do not have to chose between living with family and having a roof over your head. You do not have to wonder if you can afford your next meal, or your next doctor visit, or your next auto tune-up.

In society, the rich (and the politicians) are the ones in a position of power. And yes, they dang well should be judged. Every second one spends in a position of power should be thoroughly and critically scrutinized because democracy cannot function any other way.

 

[gymgal]

You are rich. You have power. I am poor. I don't. I could complain about rich people all day long-which is not something I choose to waste my time doing, I have school and work-and no one who can do stuff would care.

Wow - Why would you ever think you don't have power? You have power over your life, your choices. You are going to school. You work. You are making choices to gain more power. That's the power that matters. It's not what is happening around you, it's what YOU are doing to better yourself.

OK - I know, you're talking about the "real" power of the government, lobbyists, etc... I get that. But really, no one has that power because even the rich have equally rich opponents lobbying for the other side.

--------------------------
on a different note -

All this talk about being born into poverty, how these kids can't get ahead, doomed from the start. That's a self fulfilling prophecy. Is it harder? Of course. Is it impossible? No. But until we have mothers and fathers teaching their kids to dream, stay in school and study hard, stay away from drugs, don't have s*x (boy or girl), don't join a gang, go to college (or better yet, a trade school so they can enter the work force earlier and then work on a college degree later), these kids' lives (and future generations) won't change. It's not about the money, or the assistance, or the schools. It's about whether the child has the role models, the dreams, and the motivation to change his "lot in life". You can throw as much money into the situation as you want.... lord knows the gvt has tried. It doesn't change because it's a bandaid. More money for better housing, health care, food and schools does not drive away the drugs, violence, bad attitudes (if you try hard in school, you are going against your upbringing and becoming one of "them"), and the stupid, poor choices people make.

 

[Andersonortho]

When you're in a position of power, you get judged.

This is as it should be.

When I coach, I am in a position of power over a group of kids, and I am getting judged every second of it. By the parents, by the other coaches, by those above me in the gym hierarchy, by everybody. And this is exactly as it should be -- if I cannot stand up to that judgement, if I am not judged worthy of holding that position of power, then I should no longer have that position. When you are in a position of power, you are morally obligated to earn it, and to continue earning it.

When I walk out the door of the gym, my position of power evaporates. I am a poor twenty-something-year-old doing whatever he can to keep his body and his car in adequate working order, to keep a roof over his head, and so on. Right now I'm renting a single room from the brother of the owner of the gym where I work, because I haven't yet found an apartment that will let me keep my dog without charging extortionate rent (Darwin, the dog, is currently living back in NC with my parents).

If you are rich, you do not face that problem. You do not have to chose between living with family and having a roof over your head. You do not have to wonder if you can afford your next meal, or your next doctor visit, or your next auto tune-up.

In society, the rich (and the politicians) are the ones in a position of power. And yes, they dang well should be judged. Every second one spends in a position of power should be thoroughly and critically scrutinized because democracy cannot function any other way.

Power? Where is my power? How did I get it? Want some? Make changes in your life.. like accepting the new coaching position in San Jose (congrats). Work your way up... start your own gym. You can have "power", too.

We teach our kids to never covet what someone else has or what someone else scores... work on your own skills, routine, etc. Wishing that someone else will lose does not make you a winner.


Twenty-something? Ahhh. I see. Yes, you are in the struggling-time of life. You are not alone. Many of us were there also. I didn't even get out of school until I was 30. No job. Living off of financial aid checks (only $12,500 per YEAR!!) and all the deer meat my husband could kill.

Want a better paying job. The oil and gas industry is booming here. Entry level jobs are making $50K+. It's a dirty job but my small, rural, off-the-beaten-path town is bursting with gas well workers. Maybe you are better suited for different career field.

Being more than 20 years your senior, I have a different perspective than you. Not better. Just different.

 

[Andersonortho]

Now we need to talk about power.

You are rich. You have power. I am poor. I don't. I could complain about rich people all day long-which is not something I choose to waste my time doing, I have school and work-and no one who can do stuff would care.

Whereas, when rich people talk about poor people (and, btw, your child's coach is probably one of them-coaching is something you do for love, not money), decision makers listen. Then it goes from "there are a few people who abuse this system" to "all poor people are parasites".

Then people like me are treated like something you scraped off your shoe. This is exactly what you don't need when you're juggling all the things you need to survive. If you are poor (and many many people were born into poverty, many more are disabled-often with things they can't afford to get treated because medicaid restrictions are terrible, assuming you meet criteria and can prove it every 4 months), it's not exactly a land of opportunity.

I wasn't born rich... I made my money the old fashioned way. I earned it. What's wrong with that?

I don't think "poor people are parasites". I think lazy people are. Poor does not equal lazy... I have been poor.

Amazingly, I know many who have overcome their circumstances to become successful in this "land of opportunity". Not all are rich.

You are taking important steps to empower yourself. Your drive to improve your circumstances is a great asset. You have made a wise choice to take advantage of the opportunity to increase your education.

I know about coaching for the love of the sport. My father coached 33 years at the small college level. He was never paid to coach.