Should chalk markings be allowed on Vault runway? (COACHES, GYMNAST, and JUDGES)

[gymster]

As a Judge I often wonder about chalk lines on the runway as they are not really capable of being fully removed without a vaccume or water. Then this weekend with my parents hat on I experienced my child having issues with unremoved chalk marks. The rule states that the marks must be removed after the rotation but what about during the rotation? Do you think that chalk should be allowed on the Vault runway? Have you as a Gymnast, Coach, or Judge experienced any issues with this? The video below shows the level 9's Typical Vault followed by a Vault in which she Hurdeled at the wrong chalk mark!



:vault:



[video=youtube;F_GVi22KNEQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_GVi22KNEQ[/video]

 

[10.0]

All the meets I have been to around here only allow you to use a strip of velcro that gets removed right after your vault. No clean up and no confusion.

 

[mariposa]

Yikes, that was scary. Hope she wasn't hurt, how scary for her.

I had no idea that marks were made for where a gymnast hurdles. My kid is just a L5, so the only mark she is looking for is her # on the tape measure so she knows where to start.

I would think that chalk would be bad because it can't always be removed. Seems the velcro strips would be a better choice.

 

[Dezi]

My dd is a training level 5 but I have seen our optional girls compete and they use a velcro strip here also.

 

[bogwoppit]

Oh my goodness, that was very scary to watch. I am very glad that she is okay. The first vault was lovely, with lots of height and distance.

Here there is a long tape measure run by the side of the vault run, girls know their number and they run from it. No chalking on the runway ever.

 

[gymjoy]

Can't say I have any opinion because I've seen the chalk marks or the velcro at my dd's meets. Our girls all know where they start according to a tape measure (she is a L9 also). They do multiple run-bys and timers counting their steps to get the hurdle in the right place. At least that is what dd has explained to me.

The first vault was very nice, by the way. But that second one scared the heck out of me, though the gymnast pulled out of it nicely.

 

[gymnastbeth]

I've always just used a hand placement mat, though a velcro strip seems like it would do the job better than chalk.

 

[gymdog]

Generally the marks are used in conjunction with a tape measure and a hand mat. The marks are made to hurdle from, not to put the hands down, or to start running from. The gymnast will know where to start running from (say 73 feet) but the mark in question would be much further up, where she hurdles.

Yes, they're useful.

This issue came up among the JO committee recently where the rule about removing it after the rotation was put in place. but velcro line was encouraged. In my experience it is generally not removed and this is not enforced. But I feel like it should be common sense to some extent. The problem with the velcro is sometimes having it available. Chalk is convenient but so is tape so that can be another option...usually even athletic tape will stay put for a few vaults.

While chalk isn't that easier to get rid of, it's not exactly impossible to stamp it out and make clearer lines. I feel at L9 and 10 it is the responsibility of the coach and the athlete to use the warm up time to make sure that that proper equipment settings are in place and there is no hazard. While it is fine to try and make rules to put generally good procedures in place, the final responsibility rests with the coach to ensure the proper conditions. Otherwise no matter how good our rules or procedures are, there will be instances that require individual discretion.

I am a little confused - does your daughter usually use a line to hurdle from, or no line? The issue with the chalk really isn't always even other teams...even among the same team there could be different setting placements which would necessitate different lines. What do they usually do in practice?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

holy ****! that's why there is a rule. chalk has to be removed. same goes for velcro. if you're a judge you should know this. looks like you're from woga. valeri & marchenko know this also. and usually if an entire team uses chalk/velcro, and according to the rules, they remove it for the next team. i'm sweating at the moment from watching that...and i don't know how to make a pissed off icon...wish i knew how.

edited: i had to come back here and ask again...you're really a judge? are you kidding?? you take the same tests that we do. don't you guys read the rules and policies? honestly??

to coaches: this is why you have to be diligent about crap like this. i've seen bad injuries at beam for the same damn thing. they mark the beam for their hands or put small tape strips on. the kids get confused and use the wrong one.

honestly...i can't believe you're a judge and asking this question ***exasperated***

edited again: doesn't matter if your kid is 1st or last or everything in between. it is the coach's responsibility to remove the markings for the next kid or team. and whether you are in the same rotation or not. same goes for the morons that adjust the beams and don't put them back where they were set. coaches have to watch out for this also. this is not some kumbaya between everyone. it's a rule!

geesh...and how would everyone have felt if she had been injured. you know what? i want to say more but won't cause it'll get as ugly as that video you posted.

edited again: this is right out of the rules and policies. and it had to be clarified in a technical bulletin because most were too stooooopid to understand what it meant. they were speaking to a coach whose team WAS the entire rotation. this is the most common at invitational meets. i don't know how to increase font size on this. can someone take care of this please?

c. Athletic tape, Velcro strips or small chalk marks may be placed across the width of the vault runway,


provided that such markings are removed no later than the end of the rotation.

 

[gymster]

holy ****! That's why there is a rule. Chalk has to be removed. Same goes for velcro. If you're a judge you should know this. Looks like you're from woga. Valeri & marchenko know this also. And usually if an entire team uses chalk/velcro, and according to the rules, they remove it for the next team. I'm sweating at the moment from watching that...and i don't know how to make a pissed off icon...wish i knew how.

Edited: I had to come back here and ask again...you're really a judge? Are you kidding?? You take the same tests that we do. Don't you guys read the rules and policies? Honestly??

To coaches: This is why you have to be diligent about crap like this. I've seen bad injuries at beam for the same damn thing. They mark the beam for their hands or put small tape strips on. The kids get confused and use the wrong one.

Honestly...i can't believe you're a judge and asking this question ***exasperated***

edited again: Doesn't matter if your kid is 1st or last or everything in between. It is the coach's responsibility to remove the markings for the next kid or team. And whether you are in the same rotation or not. Same goes for the morons that adjust the beams and don't put them back where they were set. Coaches have to watch out for this also. This is not some kumbaya between everyone. It's a rule!

Geesh...and how would everyone have felt if she had been injured. You know what? I want to say more but won't cause it'll get as ugly as that video you posted.

Edited again: This is right out of the rules and policies. And it had to be clarified in a technical bulletin because most were too stooooopid to understand what it meant. They were speaking to a coach whose team was the entire rotation. This is the most common at invitational meets. I don't know how to increase font size on this. Can someone take care of this please?

c. Athletic tape, velcro strips or small chalk marks may be placed across the width of the vault runway,


provided that such markings are removed no later than the end of the rotation.

yes i am a judge and yes i know the rules!!! My point is the ability to stamp out chalk on the vault runway especially on the last rotation! As a judge i personally make sure that all marks are off my runway at the end of each rotation to the best of my ability but especially multiple marks in the same location become harder and harder to remove! However the point here again is it is sometimes diificult to remove chalk!!!!! Andto add insult to injury the tape measure had been pulled 5 inches out of place! Believe me there were more issues going on here not coaching issues either! I am not trying to justify anything i am trying to see if this is a valid point! The point is this do we need to not allow chalk as a marker! Believe me as the parent of this child i am thankful this did not result in injury! Cause the outcome could have been alot worst! I am not... Repeat not trying to blame anyone or create excuses! I feel specifically chalk is an issue!! I think this was discussed amongst the jo comittee and decided to keep chalk however, i believe more discussion was actually put toward adding velcro than disallowing chalk! Yes!!!!! Its is scarry!!! That is my point!!! I do not want to see a child hurt and before i brought this up with the jo comitee i was trying to get oppinions on the chalk issue! Not anything else!

So let me ask you... Again did you really really read the post or just skim it look at the video get ticked and start ranting???? Really read the title of the post geeze!

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Generally the marks are used in conjunction with a tape measure and a hand mat. The marks are made to hurdle from, not to put the hands down, or to start running from. The gymnast will know where to start running from (say 73 feet) but the mark in question would be much further up, where she hurdles.

Yes, they're useful.

This issue came up among the JO committee recently where the rule about removing it after the rotation was put in place. but velcro line was encouraged. In my experience it is generally not removed and this is not enforced. But I feel like it should be common sense to some extent. The problem with the velcro is sometimes having it available. Chalk is convenient but so is tape so that can be another option...usually even athletic tape will stay put for a few vaults.

While chalk isn't that easier to get rid of, it's not exactly impossible to stamp it out and make clearer lines. I feel at L9 and 10 it is the responsibility of the coach and the athlete to use the warm up time to make sure that that proper equipment settings are in place and there is no hazard. While it is fine to try and make rules to put generally good procedures in place, the final responsibility rests with the coach to ensure the proper conditions. Otherwise no matter how good our rules or procedures are, there will be instances that require individual discretion.

I am a little confused - does your daughter usually use a line to hurdle from, or no line? The issue with the chalk really isn't always even other teams...even among the same team there could be different setting placements which would necessitate different lines. What do they usually do in practice?

the average placement for the hurdle line is 25 feet. the smaller the athlete the closer to the hand mat that line is. and it is the responsibility of the coaches and the judges. NOT THE ATHLETES. THEY ARE FOCUSED ON WHAT THEY MUST DO. THAT'S WHY GYMNASTS HAVE COACHES. OUR JOB NOT THEIRS. and GOOD judges are keeping their eyes on this just as they do when boards are in the way and they ask coaches to move them. and even if the athlete doesn't use a line, that line becomes confusing for the athlete. they see it and sometimes they can't takes their eyes off of it. and nobody starts running from that line. it's usually 25 feet away from the from the table. all the meets i go to it IS removed and IT IS enforced. and you could never get away with that at regionals or nationals.

and if you don't do your job at the elite level? you're dead meat! the coach that is.

 

[gymster]

Maybe you dont understand me. Here is the question rephrased another way. Do you think that it might be safer for vaulters if no chalk was allowed to be used on the vault runway due to the fact that sometimes it is hard to be completly removed, and could possibly confuse the vaulter????

 

[gymdog]

the average placement for the hurdle line is 25 feet. the smaller the athlete the closer to the hand mat that line is. and it is the responsibility of the coaches and the judges. NOT THE ATHLETES. THEY ARE FOCUSED ON WHAT THEY MUST DO. THAT'S WHY GYMNASTS HAVE COACHES. OUR JOB NOT THEIRS. and GOOD judges are keeping their eyes on this just as they do when boards are in the way and they ask coaches to move them. and even if the athlete doesn't use a line, that line becomes confusing for the athlete. they see it and sometimes they can't takes their eyes off of it. and nobody starts running from that line. it's usually 25 feet away from the from the table. all the meets i go to it IS removed and IT IS enforced. and you could never get away with that at regionals or nationals.

and if you don't do your job at the elite level? you're dead meat! the coach that is.

Well, I agree it is FOR THE MOST PART the coaches responsibility but I think there has to be some input from the gymnast. I don't think they should feel afraid to point out things like this or express discomfort with the set-up. There should be communication from both sides. I have a friend who was warming up on bars at regionals and another coach set the equipment while her coach was with another gymnast. The equipment was set wrong, she was an old enough and high enough level to notice and express this after doing a timer for her release. She told him it was set wrong and he insisted he was right and it was set where she and her coach had told him to set it and tried to rush her to finish her warm up so others could go. Well, it was not, and this resulted in a serious accident. She was eventually okay but it could have been worse. This never should have happened (obviously I see many things wrong with this situation). I said "for coaches and athletes to use the warm-up time" to check the equipment settings, and yes, I think athlete input into their performance on the equipment is not unreasonable DURING THE WARM UP TIME. Obviously the ultimate responsibility rests with the coach to set the equipment.

I am not trying to advocate it not being enforced, I am merely suggesting it is not enforced or followed everywhere. It appears this may have been the case as in the original post. But again even within a rotation there could be slightly different settings so it is not like just following the rule of "remove it before the end of the rotation" is a perfect thing to solve the problem for everyone. If you read my post I am aware that the mark is not to run from. I used 73 feet as an example of where the gymnast would start running and stated the mark in question (i.e. the line) would be much further up. The reason I asked whether she usually uses one is because I was confused about whether a line had been placed within the rotation of her own team or not, since that would affect my answer about the issue experienced. Obviously it is confusing if it is there and you see it.

Finally, I suppose my first post was poorly expressed. I don't wish to blame the coaches, so what I more accurately should have said is that it is something to be aware of, since clearly it was enough of an issue for the committee to bring up, and some of us have seen instances where procedures are not being followed and enforced, or are causing hazardous conditions. I am glad gymster's daughter was not hurt but I believe she posted more as a discussion not to ask what the rule is. She clearly was aware of the rule per the book as she stated it in her first post. It appears the intent was to discuss why this remains an issue. And again I would say: no matter what rules or procedures we put into place, the common sense thing is that there is still going to be a need for individual discretion, and coaches need to remain aware of this.

 

[gymster]

I promise it will be discussed at our next state judges meeting! at least the lack of enforcement anyway! My purpose Is simply to see if others think Chalk specifically is a problem! Coaches work their tails off and are almost second parents to these kids and often have several people with no idea about anything telling them how to do their job, Gymnast often are trying to please coaches and parents and judges and do the best of their ability and possibly take home a medal, judges are trying to be consistent, accurate and maintain safety, all the while trying to not miss a thing while recording everything and gather deductions into a score as quickly as humanly possible, Parents are often trying to be a cheerleader, sponsor, nurse, counselor...., We all have a responsibilty to each other to make gymnastics a better sport if that is possible cause if it were not awesome we would not be doing it! and truly that is my purpose!

 

[gymdog]

My purpose Is simply to see if others think Chalk specifically is a problem!

I think that like with the decision to not allow using sting mats on the runway (rather than manufactured hand mats the size of the runway), if a standardized equipment decision is made, that problem can be mostly eliminated. Otherwise if standard equipment is not required, then people keep using whatever they grab while they are rushing to do the warm up. Personally...I think using a line that can be moved (velcro...tape in a pinch) is the best thing. But when people don't have it or they are not forced to conform to that standard, they are going to use whatever. if they come out and say "you have to use this" people will get that and they will make sure they have it.

 

[CamSeawind]

We do not use chalk marks at our gym, and we all know where we start our vault according to the tape measure. I thought that you hurdled in the same place every time for a vault as long as you ran the same from the same starting number, apparently I am wrong. As for the problem, if chalk marks are used I would advise using velcro instead so that there is not confusion, plus then there is easy clean-up.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Maybe you dont understand me. Here is the question rephrased another way. Do you think that it might be safer for vaulters if no chalk was allowed to be used on the vault runway due to the fact that sometimes it is hard to be completly removed, and could possibly confuse the vaulter????

yes, it would be safer if no chalk was used. in fact, i haven't seen it used in quite some time most places i go. velcro and tape are used. the coach just lifts/pulls it off.

now for the other problems you referred to. if the tape measure breaks away from being taped down, or the table moves away from the start of the vault runway and where that tape measure must start someone is certain to be hurt. at vault...the safety is in the math measurements from the beginning to end. and for yurchenkos, 2 inches either direction can mean the difference between landing on ones feet or face. or coming on to high or all sorts of other problems related to entry. again, these are issues that must be looked after by coaches and judges alike. imagine if the athlete, due to factors out of her control that all things listed found her hurdle line at 27 instead of 25 and her hand mat 6 inches back and the board 6 inches back, were now to find herself a math total of 3 feet back from where she normally is. now, if for the grace of god she can make it to the table from 3 feet further away, that would place her on the front of the table. it is more likely than not that this athlete will now hit the table during the post flight of her vault. and just how many of you have seen this happen? for me it is more times than i care to remember.

and i stand firm on the responsibility of the athlete. it is their job to do gymnastics. notwithstanding an obvious departure from where an individual athlete may have their bars set and they happen to notice...it is not their responsibility to notice. if athletes had to worry about if their equipment was set straight away they all would need medication. understand? again, the sacred trust between athlete and coach. and if the athlete is standing 75 feet away, and the judge raises the green flag, you can not expect the athlete to guage whether their hand mat is in the correct place, or that their board is in the correct place, or that the tape measure broke away and they can't see that from where they stand or that the table is 6 inches away from the vault runway. understand? they are sprinting down the runway at an average of 12 miles an hour and have a miniscule moment in time to perform their yurchenko layout full or whatever. you can't just 'pull up' once you commit. and gymnasts are taught not to pull up and execute to the end. this is one of the primary safety nets ingrained in gymnasts so that they DON'T become injured. this is well known, published and understood in the coaching community and says as much in the safety manual. to not practice this time honored safety technique would then lend itself to the practice of 'balking'. and ALL of you must be aware of the inherent safety concerns as it relates to balking, yes?

and gymster...i'm glad that this post did not get pulled. this is important stuff for all. turns out it went downthread to page 2 and i didn't see it right away.

and gymdog...the kids should know their bar settings, vault settings, etc; in the event that they are separated from their coach as you described. shame on that coach for accepting the responsibility of another athlete and failing to follow thru. unacceptable! this means that it is their job to ensure that everything is where it belongs.

 

[gymdog]

and gymdog...the kids should know their bar settings, vault settings, etc; in the event that they are separated from their coach as you described. shame on that coach for accepting the responsibility of another athlete and failing to follow thru. unacceptable! this means that it is their job to ensure that everything is where it belongs.

Well, I'm pretty sure we're saying similar things. My point is that the athlete should feel able to express problems or discomfort and not be told "No! It's right! Get moving!" without the coach even checking or acknowledging the concern. It's a two way street. Coaches aren't infallible mind readers, and gymnasts aren't robots. As far as "understanding", I've done a little gymnastics in my life, so yes, I have some "understanding" of how it works and what happens before you compete on vault. I will reiterate: the coach has the ultimate responsibility for setting and checking the equipment. For example, I am disturbed at how quickly some coaches set bars with like 5 other people without going around and checking everything. I don't care if I waste 20 seconds of warm up, I don't allow a child on the bars until I check everything if multiple people were moving at once with little coordination or plan. It is too easy in some circumstances for someone to think someone else tightened something. Obviously if it's one other person and we both watch each other tighten our side, fine. The kids I coach know not to get on equipment until I tell them it's clear.

In the case I mentioned, even if warm up time was wasted or she ended up having to scratch the event due to the confusion, then it would have been better than what happened. It was a serious injury which could have resulted in serious life altering consequences (thankfully, it did not). Obviously the athletes in the JO program are young and fairly impressionable, and they are for the most part going to do what a coach tells them. The coaches need to LISTEN to concerns and encourage the athlete to express themself productively. It is another "check" in the system of preventing accidents.

So basically, my point in my original post was whatever the procedures are, if someone did not follow them, that is not good. But the coach of the athletes using the equipment when push comes to shove needs to ultimately check the equipment. That does not excuse carelessness of other coaches in moving things without mentioning it, etc, but it still needs to be checked. Obviously there is a lot going on at JO meets, many competitors on the floor at once. So this is something that could be reiterated and policies amended in order to facilitate good practices. I have seen circumstances with chalk marks not removed, and other various things. Again I think if we want it to disappear completely, that just needs to be the rule. If you need a line on the runway then the standard is a removable velcro line. Then people will make the necessary preparations because they have to.

 

[cher062]

My DD's gym uses tape loosly placed and when the girl finishes her 2nd vault one of the coaches removes it and moves it in place for the next girl.