Tsukahara Hand Placement

[emacmommy]

I have a gymnast who moved from another gym with yurchenko fear issues so we're on a path to tsuks. It's been a little while since I've had to be technical with tsuks. Back in the days of the "twinkie" vault (vault horse instead of table), I competed layout tsuks and tsuk fulls so the concept isn't foreign to me by any means. In the days of the table the hand placement seems so varied, although I do see mostly what I would consider the men's staggered hand placement predominately now.

I would dearly love a good round table discussion of the pros and cons of hand placement techniques for a women's tsuk.

HAND PLACEMENT
* 1/4 on with round off technique (first hand sideways-second hand
pointing back towards board)
* 1/4 on with both hands pointing towards board
* 1/4 on with "who cares hands" usually fingers all facing sideways
(I wouldn't teach this but thought I'd throw it in as the black sheep)
* 1/2 on with both hands pointing towards board
* Complete 1/2 on with both hands horizontally even with each
other fingers towards board
TIMING OF HAND PLACEMENT
* One hand contacting first then other quickly there after
* Both hands hitting at the same time (Karen Goeller is still
advocating this)
PLACEMENT ON TABLE
* To the front of the table
* To the back of the table

Ready, Aim, Fire... I want to hear your pros and cons.

If anybody needs to know this is a 16 yr old, long body-type (approx. 5'2") with good shoulder strength, vaulting on 1300 right now, board approx 3'4". She is currently flipping into the pit with a medium bump for rotation but not height and being relatively successful. I'm helping initiate the chest lifting. I say relatively because she is still needing my assistance to initiate.

 

[gymdog]

I'll be interested in this discussion. I can't see much of an advantage to both hands hitting at the same time, I admit. But I haven't ever really thought about it. I do think it's important to get the second hand in fast before the weight shifts over so maybe it's along those lines...but I think you can do that without 1/2ing on or both hands at the same time. I have done tsuks on the table (pretty extensively). Personally my hands more or less mimic how I RO on the floor. So, 1/4 on, first hand more or less sideways, second hand turned in towards the first.

Especially for smaller kids I would be concerned a 1/2 on or both hands at the same time wouldn't be advantageous for displacement away from the table. For an older girl it may not really be an issue.

I think most important is that the body stay open/extended until the push so the push can snap up and over. The most common mistake I deal with is that the push/block doesn't happen until the weight shifts over so everything goes down.

A good drill is barani to flat back (pull through) onto a resi type mat (go off springboard, mini tramp, tumble track, etc). Trying not to pike but pull from the shoulders. There is a good yurchenko drill to do the BHS standing back a wall (with like an 8 incher against the wall) or resi mat or something tall enough, and snap up to the wall and back to hands (like a handstand pop, sort of, but from a BHS). Needs to be spotted, obviously. I've been thinking of adapting that one for a RO type action, but even just doing it from the BHS seems to help the idea of an extended body and snap up.

 

[emacmommy]

We do lots of "cheese wedge" (incline mat) tsuks into the pit. It's the same drill as Mas Watanabe's kaz drills using double spring board, but we use a large wedge and only flips tsuks.

Tsuk Incline Drill This is not my gym but a good youtube example
Mas Watanabe This is definitely a Kazamatsu even though it states tsuk 1/1 and I'm definitely not interested in teaching this to her yet so just because it's linked, don't throw it in as a tsuk technique

I'm glad I revisited and found the Mas Watanable links. Take a look at this one Mas Watanabe Double Board Drill for Vaulting He does teach what this old-timer (me) considers to be a cartwheel entry, or my black sheep entry up there. Thoughts? However, when she actually flipped it she turned both hands to fingers towards board. I'm pretty sure those aren't his gymnast although I don't know which gym he is affiliated with anymore.

 

[gymdog]

We do lots of "cheese wedge" (incline mat) tsuks into the pit. It's the same drill as Mas Watanabe's kaz drills using double spring board, but we use a large wedge and only flips tsuks.

Tsuk Incline Drill This is not my gym but a good youtube example
Mas Watanabe This is definitely a Kazamatsu even though it states tsuk 1/1 and I'm definitely not interested in teaching this to her yet so just because it's linked, don't throw it in as a tsuk technique

These drills however if they tend to not get the extension it often carries over. Sometimes I like to do these drills with layouts if possible as that can sometimes help with the shape and the understanding of the extended turnover/upper body lift before piking or tucking, rather than balling up. If that makes sense, I'm having trouble of how to explain it.

I was thinking about how most men do seem to use a different technique, moreso hitting the hands at the same time with both hands straight. Interesting. But maybe my observation is off there, and it's not as common as I think.

 

[emacmommy]

I would agree with you. She does great timers and then rushes to the flip when she flips them. I joke around and say she plays patty cake rather than pushing the vault away and lifting her chest. In a nut shell, she rushes. A lot more drills are in order.

I'm definitely interested in the preflight/contact though. It's changed in the years of the table for us women and there are so many techniques to choose from now. Men have always had the length of the horse.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

round off hand placement works fine. but, you have the board much to far. the farther the board...the longer it takes to get to the table. linear force gets lost in that split second.

place the board between 1 and 1 1/2. you'll get better results.

 

[marie83]

I'm currently teaching tsuks for the first time (supported plenty, and helped to correct before, but this is the first time teaching from scratch) so I'm interested in your ideas too!
Currently I'm teaching it as a 1/4 on with the roundoff entry hands - I've tried to get the girls to 1/2 on, but it isn't actually required to be a 1/2 on according to judging rules, so I'm not too worried about that!

 

[marie83]

There is a good yurchenko drill to do the BHS standing back a wall (with like an 8 incher against the wall) or resi mat or something tall enough, and snap up to the wall and back to hands (like a handstand pop, sort of, but from a BHS). Needs to be spotted, obviously. I've been thinking of adapting that one for a RO type action, but even just doing it from the BHS seems to help the idea of an extended body and snap up.

Could you describe this one for me please as I'm struggling to visualise it! Sorry to be a pain!

 

[gymdog]

round off hand placement works fine. but, you have the board much to far. the farther the board...the longer it takes to get to the table. linear force gets lost in that split second.

place the board between 1 and 1 1/2. you'll get better results.

Yeah I didn't notice that. I think with the table anything farther than 2' back is too far, can go even closer but for sure I wouldn't say beyond 2'.

As far as the drill I mentioned, I'll try to youtube it. I wouldn't say it's really for beginners though...i.e. it's not among the entry level drills I do for flipping vaults. It also needs to be spotted initially.

 

[wordsmith]

Could you describe this one for me please as I'm struggling to visualise it! Sorry to be a pain!

I'm sure this is the kind of drill setup gymdog is describing.

 

[wordsmith]

He does teach what this old-timer (me) considers to be a cartwheel entry, or my black sheep entry up there. Thoughts? However, when she actually flipped it she turned both hands to fingers towards board.

I believe you asked about hand placement; and if I remember correctly, Mas also teaches his gymnasts to turn their second placement hand outward (fingertips faced away from the board) on that cartwheel-type entry. On his GymSmarts dvd, he explains that he feels the vaulter can get a better blocking action from that second arm by doing this.

If you look at the vaulter in the 2nd link you provided (the Kaz one), you can see her second hand turned out.

 

[gymdog]

I'm sure this is the kind of drill setup gymdog is describing.

Yes! I was having trouble finding a video but remembered seeing one somewhere. That's a good set up for it actually combining the double boards for some spring.

 

[BlairBob]

1. I'm pretty sure those are Mas' kid's because it looked Byers Sac where he is the technical director.

1. I prefer teaching it using the round-off technique. You can either do it with the first hand like a handspring and turning the second hand sideways or adjusting the turn of the hands by 90 degrees.

You'll see a lot of Tsuks posting on the first arm to bend it and push.

 

[ryantroop]

Not sure if Im adding to a dead topic here, but I teach hands forward (now) where I used to teach round off approach.

Reasoning for change - I learned proper technique for a handspring front, and how much block is available within the first few moments of contact on the table.

Hands forward, staggered, allows for a more natural progression from handsprings, and builds off the developped block system we teach from early levels through higher level competitions. The block is quick, practiced, and much much more powerful as it doesn't allow for much bending in areas - so, much less sagging in the elbows.

That said, it is also a bit more difficult to twist using this method, but the added height gained from the block should more than make up for the added effort to initiate a simple 1/4 turn.

In regards to the OP - personally, I would teach a tsuk for the first time using a round off approach for your gymnast. You will feel more comfortable as a coach, as you will understand the mechanic of the skill, and be able to identify weaknesses in the technique to better provide support to your athlete - and that's what is important. After you feel accomplished using this method, and you wish to increase amplitude and are comfortable experimenting (based on sound theory of body mechanics and understanding of the skill), you can tweak hand placements and (what is probably more important) board placement and hurdle techniques.

For the record, 1/2 on tsuks are acceptable, but throw-backs to the old school horse vault for WAG. While it's good to know about it, and it's use, I would avoid it. Use the tools available for current events to maximize performance and limit risk.

Hope that helps!

Ryan