WAG Mobility question anyone!

[mmcmanus]

My DD was level 4, 5 & 6 AA and beam State champs. 2012 was her Level 6 season and she scored 36.25 AA. Her only weak event was bars where she scored 8.45. She is still weak in bars in her cast angles and in the fact that while she can pike straddle a very good cast handstand (first one in her level at her gym to reach handstand many months ago) her coach is requiring her to do a straight body cast handstand, which she hasnt figured out yet, so she isn't allowed to work giants.

Now she clearly exceeded her mobility score to move to either the new Level 6 or even straight to Level 7 by more than five points, and she has been training all spring and summer for Level 7. Now all of a sudden her coach wants her, and one teammate with similar success to compete the new Level 5 this Fall. My concern is twofold: 1. That she will be missing focus on level 7 training; & 2. That she will risk losing the feeling of success in her level if she doesn't finish first again. A gymnastics judge I know, who actually has judged most of her competitions, so no way! She should NOT compete the new Level 5. Other parents who know her say no way as well. So I am looking for coach and parent feedback on the subject. Is there a downside to having my successful Level 6 champ suspend her Optionals training to compete Level 5 this season? I don't know the best thing to do!

 

[gymmomof1]

My gut reaction if "no way". She had successful compulsory years so why is she not going to optionals? How old is your dd? I see you talked about bars being weak with not being able to do a staight cast to handstand-mine never could lol, but how did she do with the other uptraining new L6 or L7 skills on beam, floor and vault? If she did well then I think you should talk with the coach as to what the plan is for your dd and why is she not going to optionals.

 

[wallflower]

I wouldn't say it's a question of mobility because each gym sets their own standard for moving onto the next level. For an answer to why they want her to do new level 5, you will need to ask your coach since only they know your daughter. A few thoughts and possibilities for you:

Even if she won state, a 36ish isn't the type of score range that I would think its crazy for a kid to repeat. In my daughter's group at state last year a 36 AA wouldn't have even been top 10. And a weakness on bars is the reason our gym holds back. Our coach always says bars determines your level. We had some kids scoring 37-38 and winning every meet in level 6, but didn't get moved up to 7 because of bars. They were really helped out in the AA score by having 9.85 vault scores, but low bar scores. In gymnastics I don't think placement means anything about being ready the next level.

Our gym requires a straight body cast. Only older girls are allowed to straddle and its an exception, not the rule. So perhaps your gym has the same idea.

If you have a fall and spring season maybe they want her to compete level 5 in the fall and optionals in the spring. A lot of gyms do that here and it works quite well.

Just some thoughts. I would talk to your coach for the answers though.

 

[mmcmanus]

Thanks, I appreciate all the input I can get. Coach is type a and hard to talk to. Honestly I think he enjoys a winning team and that is a strong factor here. He doesn't have the team to do it without these two girls. I don't blame him if thats the case, but I am looking at DDs best interest. She just turned 12. My main concern is that I don't want learning the new routines and practicing them interfering with her being ready for Optionals in winter/spring. If she just trains, she can focus on improving her cast angles and getting to handstand, which will give her a stronger bars routine. If she competes in the Fall season she will be focused on routines. BTW, she did not have any 9.8 vaults, she had good vault and floor scores and very high beam scores.

She has all skills for Level 7 floor (full, layout, 180 switch leap, front handspring fronts, etc) and beam skills (BHS, salto dismounts, full turns,leaps, jumps, back-walkover back-walkovers, stalder press mount by her choice, etc,), of course she has vault, and she has all required elements for bars (neither a cast handstand nor a giant is required-just circle on both bars-which she has. I just want whatever she does to be the best for her, physically, mentally, and emotionally! Make sense?

 

[mmcmanus]

The thing here is that it isn't that she is not moving up. He just wants to compete her and teammate again on the way to spring optional competition.

 

[wallflower]

I totally understand your concern about working routines and not spending time on optional routines.

A couple of things to consider: whether she competes 5,6, or 7 her work on casting should be the same. That's basics. She will work kchs the rest of her time in gymnastics. The low bar for old 6 and 7 are essentially the same. So she shouldn't "lose" any time working on her casting angles. And competing might even push her to work harder there than if she was just training. That depends on her personality. Mine is pushed by competing.

While you are correct that a handstand isn't required on bars for level 7, she will be deducted for every time she doesn't hit handstand in her cast. Requirements are the minimum. So if she can't cast to handstand she will not score well on bars. You said she can straddle cast, but that depends on if her coach will allow that. Ours won't.

She can also compete a bhs on beam in new 5. If that is what her coach wants her to do, than maybe she could compete the bhs instead of bwo. That will help her be prepared for spring optionals.

We don't go to a gym where I could say to the coach that I disagree and don't want her to compete. Those decisions are completely up to the coach. I don't know what kind of gym yours is, but if its like ours you will probably just have to accept it and make the best of it. Maybe help her set some goals of really improving those bar scores into the 9's because that will really help her for level 7.

 

[mmcmanus]

Very good advice! Thanks! The coach gave my DD and her teammate the option of just training or competing, and they both chose training, but now he is saying he wants them to compete. He asks, but if anyone doesn't give the answer he wants to hear, there is trouble! For the girls and the parents - so we have to pick our battles carefully and I was contemplating on whether this is a battle to pick or not. We have a great deal of respect for coach, in spite of this downfall! But it makes it hard to determine where to draw a line and advocate for our DD. SHe doesn't want to compete compulsories again, but it sounds like you think we should encourage her toward accepting it instead of rocking the boat...

 

[gymdog]

Who are these people who won't let kids do straddle cast handstands and what is their problem? Geez. Listen, 90% of optional cast handstands are straddle to handstand, so if the coach wants to play like they're training for the L7 Olympics, they should put their money where their mouth is. Train the straight body, keep progressing with the straddle. I literally don't know what is going through some people's minds sometimes. I do NOT think she needs to compete L5 from what you posted and if they coach insisted I would strongly consider that this is not the gym where she'll have the most success.

 

[wallflower]

Yeah gymdog it has pissed off a lot of parents at our gym and most of the 6's that weren't moved up left. To clarify most of the optionals compete a straddle cast or a mix of straddle and straight in their routines
but they can do both and must be able to do it to move up. They all do straight body casts to hs everyday as part of their basics and that's just what they expect.

I have a feeling they just get to be choosey because the gym is going to have between 25-30 level 10's this year depending on who all makes the jump from 9 to 10. There were 20 level 10's last year and some new kids moved in, level 9's moving up,
Etc. There isn't really room for any more optionals so they get to be picky.

What really is "unfair" about this policy is that if a kid comes in having already competed optionals successfully and can't straight body cast, they don't turn them away if they are an otherwise strong gymnast. They just make them learn it.

And like I said they do make exceptions for older, taller gymnasts. But that's the exception, not the rule. Same with swinging FIG. Very few girls get to use a different setting. There are a couple of taller, older girls who don't use fig.

 

[happychaos]

If she already knew the routines, I don't think it would be a big deal. But why spend the time learning/perfecting routines when she has already been quite successful at that level. Sure 36+ isn't that great of score where I'm from, but I think her placement is more important. Judging just seems harder in some regions or states. She is obviously a top-notch, top placing gymnast year after year. Perhaps she has already spent too much time on the compulsory routines, and that is why she is having trouble now. Don't compete fall, train and do optionals this spring.

 

[gymmomtoo]

My concern is more the cost--that's a heck of an increased financial burden to compete all fall, then all spring! Could you use that as an excuse for not having her do it??

 

[mmcmanus]

Yes, I appreciate all the feedback and will try to respond to all here. the judge I know says that my DDs coach waits way too long to move them up. She used to own a gym in a big metropolitan area with dozens of gyms so she has a much better feel for it than I do. BTW she said that Elite girls straddle pike cast handstands. Anyway, we have only four competitive clubs in our city and around 15 in the whole state. I agree that coach waits too long to move girls up, but I dont know how to process how I feel about it because our girls only practiced 8 hours a week and won. They actually only practiced 3 hours a week in level 4, then 5 hours a week in part of level 5, then added a 3 hour workout for a total of 8 hours a week for the rest of 5 and in level 6. So my DD took first in State each year going against girls from other clubs who were in the gym 16-20 hours a week practicing (and while there aren't many clubs, she was always going against the maximum number of opponents allowed by USAG for an age group in the level) and always placed very high in all ages like one year she was third AA out of 130 kids). So maybe my DD's coach is effective by waiting to move them. He is certainly effective. No denying that! In fact our compulsory teams usually finish first or second in the state even though they many times only have 3 or 4 girls competing a level against teams of 15-20, and they don't train nearly as much as the rest of the girls in the state. Just this summer coach decided to add one more 2 hour work out for Optionals which my DD was invited to, but not before hitting a moving performance target that changed often (ie if you do this you will get invited to the extra workout, but the THIS changed a lot so when she did THIS, then she couldn't come until she did THAT!). But finally, about a month after 2 teammates, she got "invited". So for Optionals her training will be a whopping 10 hours a week which could be one reason why she has weaker bars.

So anyway, many girls in this city move from gym to gym which means that they never get into a groove with their coach. I have thought about moving my DD simply because her coach's strategy is to harp on negative to a fault and not give the positive feedback that they need and it definitely affected her last season, but my DD seems to be handling his negativity this year much better, and all the gyms have their problems. Our gym doesn't keep too many Optionals because he is hard to take for girls that are 10+ because they get hormonal and he can be very negative and sometimes unfairly, missing the mark on what really happened. But we do too as parents, and bosses do too, and teachers, etc.., My DD doesn't want to change gyms and I wonder at this point if changing would be the beginning of the end for her because she has spent all this time learning how he works and what he expects and it would be totally different with another coach. I am constantly watching to see that the negativity and morphing goals he sets for her are not getting her down and again, she seems to handle it. The other local clubs are all much bigger but come with their own problems. I know them all because the girls rotate, so you get to meet the other gym parents and hear their gym stories. Anyway, I also like the thought of financial commitment to 2 competition seasons being something to bring up-and it's true! Meets are expensive! I think I will try that approach with coach. DD really doesn't want to compete the new level five, but spend her time getting level 7 down instead.

 

[gymdog]

That is a little odd. How many girls are in this group practicing 10 hours a week? Is it really small like 3-4 girls?

 

[wallflower]

It sounds like you might be fighting a losing battle trying to do optionals at 10 hours a week. Maybe it's time for a change.

Just to clarify for you, yes elites can straddle cast, BUT in order to qualify to elite they have to do the elite compulsories and straight body cast. So yeah they have to be able to do a straight body cast.

I think at age 12 your daughter would meet the criteria at our gym to straddle body cast. It's unrealistic for your coach to offer so few hours and then say you can't work on giants until you can straight body cast like you said in your first post.

 

[mmcmanus]

Yes, I know the gym time is very challenging. as for the team size, I think there are probably 10 level 4s (new 3) 6-7 level 5 ( new 4s), and 3 level 5s (old level 6) one of which might move right into Optionals competitions after compulsory. There is 1 level 8, 1 girl that competed a twice as 7 in 2 events, and 2 (DD and teammate) who are moving to 7, unless he decides they will be 6s in the spring, No 9s or 10s. So it is a small gym, and he is owner and the only optional coach, so he doesn't have time for more workouts. DDs level 6 team was 7 girls last year, 12 the year before in 5s, etc... I ask myself all the time about whether she is in the right place as far as gyms go, and how she can get though Optionals at 10 hours a week. She has so much potential and she absolutely loves doing it. So have I cost her some by not forcing her to move? I dont know...The one level 8 gets one more 2 hour workout but that is still way less than DDs friends from other gyms. 5s and 6s go 16 hours per week and optionals go around 20 hours per week at all other local and regional gyms - but those who don't quit, are very competitive with the girls from the other gyms....so I don't know.

 

[Seeker]

....and he is owner and the only optional coach, so he doesn't have time for more workouts.

He should hire more coaches then....pretty simple solution. But one that would cut into his bottom line...

... I ask myself all the time about whether she is in the right place as far as gyms go, and how she can get though Optionals at 10 hours a week.

She won't...10 hours a week is not enough time to train the skills needed for the higher level optionals. It just isn't...no two ways about it.

Are there other gym options for you locally? I know that you said your DD does not want to change gyms, but it may be time to have a heart to heart with her about what her long term goals are in gymnastics. Depending on the answer, this gym may be fine...but it might not be. She is likely too young to understand the long term impacts of his coaching choices (low hours, quick progression, etc), but if her goals don't align with the path he's got her on and what the gym history shows to happen when girls reach upper levels, then you might need to help her see the light. Doesn't need to be a rash decision to leave immediately or a "difficult" conversation -- just a conversation with her about what she wants, how she sees herself getting there, etc.

I remember something you said upthread about her 'learning how to deal with his coaching style' and his negativity and criticisms, etc. It kind of made me cringe a bit. She is a child and yes, I do think they should be held to a high standard, but there are many other ways of doing so that don't involve belittling and negativity. Long term, I'm not sure that is the environment she should be learning how to thrive in. I know it is a tough situation and any decision to make a change will not be taken lightly, but I think that you have to at least explore the possibility that this may not be the best option available to her. Good luck to you both, whatever you decide.

 

[raenndrops]

I agree that she should not compete New 5 (coach most likely wants her to just for the scores, but with all the details, scoring is tougher this year and she already had a successful compulsory career). She should train to compete new 6/7. As you said, this gym is competitive even with reduced hours - of course part of that may be that coach holds girls back / competes them too long at a level.
At our gym, all levels have 7.5 hours a week. This wasn't a problem when the entire team was less than 20 girls... but now, we have 50+ girls, and we still only have the 7.5 hours. We have had girls place at Y Nationals (including a L5 that was first place in 3 events and all around in 2011... fell on beam and still got 2nd place - right behind a teammate).
When the gym moves location, we may add more hours for optionals... or at the very least, we won't be competing with the rec classes for equipment time.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do!

 

[gymmomtoo]

I can't imagine that the team does well on that few hours for optionals. I wonder if the hours alone is what causes people to move gyms!

 

[mmcmanus]

Thanks Seeker, I will have that conversation with her. She does have long term goals and wants to continue into college, and try to make elite. There is only one gym here that might be a positive move, but it is cliquish. It is actually the gym she started in when she was four, but we had to move after her first comp season when she was 7 because they changed her schedule in a way that wouldn't work for several months and refused to let her make up, so she would have been going two thirds of the time of her teammates and we would have been paying full price. New owners now, but she has been beating her former teammates who workout twice as much, so they may not accept her back although her very best friend is still there, at level 8 or may jump to 9 this year....
I wish I could tell the future! Good food for thought though!

 

[mmcmanus]

I also hate the negativity and wonder about long term impact. She is a child still and I feel that she totally misses the inspiration that can come from inspirational coaching. I take her to a gym camp every year (training, not rec) that is far from home so that she can fill up on positives and learn new things without negative pressure and mental games. Coach knows we go but we don't discuss it because it makes him mad. We have a don't ask don't tell policy on this. I don't think she is reaching her potential but she hated the move when she was 7 and doesn't want to do it again...I am going to ask her to think about her goals and how she can reach them...